Heaven on a Stick: Misinformation, Uncertainty and Sausage Fingers

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Annie to talk about misinformation in science and healthcare and why the most confident explanation is not always the most accurate one.

We unpack the difference between misinformation and disinformation, the idea of “inoculating” people against misleading claims, and why becoming more comfortable with uncertainty might actually make you happier.

We also talk about what science really is: not a fixed collection of facts, but a process of testing claims, challenging hypotheses and continually correcting itself.

Along the way, we venture into COVID vaccine conspiracies, the false claim that Professor Richard Scolyer’s brain cancer was caused by vaccination, the vague promise that a multivitamin can make an already healthy person somehow “weller,” and the surprisingly difficult question: what does optimum health even mean?

There is also a discussion about reinventing yourself in a room where nobody knows you, and the revelation that Annie has digits like chipolatas.

Transcript

unknown 0:00

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Oh my gosh. We should be filming this. We both recording it as well because we should be filming this. Just to give everybody a um a little visual. So Annie and I are crouched over our pod mics, which are weirdly heavy and big. And big and fluffy. In her tiny little car.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Electric, fully electric.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

In her fully electric car. At the front of our favourite cafe. And we don't look strange at all. Not at all. Not at all. Anyway. You're listening to On the Moons, where we have conversations about hormones, midlife, and the moments that make us wonder is it just me? I'm Kate. I'm a 48-year-old pharmacist and newly minted perimenopausal oversharer. This is where we talk openly about the changes we aren't prepared for. So we never have to feel alone in them again. I acknowledge the Camaregal people of the Eora Nation, the traditional custodians of the land which I am recording today. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and I extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Hello friends. Hello, friends. Hello, smart women. Oh, hello everybody. Welcome to the episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Welcome to today's episode, which is uh brought about because I really, really wanted to discuss with Annie the fact that I've spent two days at a symposium completely dedicated to misinformation in science communication. Excuse me, why wasn't I invited? You were invited. In fact, everyone was invited. I didn't hear about it. Well, I'm just quite a lot more popular than you are. Yeah, you're so popular. Yeah. That's probably why. So we spent maybe 250 of us, I would say. Gotta be like heaven on a stick. A lot of scientists, I would say mostly scientists, a lot of representation from the CSIRO, and they're really, really smart.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Many, many PhDs. I've never seen so many PhDs.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Oh my God. And nobody was talking about collagen, is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Nobody was talking about collagen up.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Injecting peptides.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

I I guess we were talking about them in a um an adjacent sort of way because the theme was misinformation in um healthcare communication predominantly. So there was there was quite a bit of um climate conversation. So as you can imagine, there's a whole lot of climate scepticism. Where?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

In the world. Oh, I thought you meant at the symposium. No. Very confused about sorry, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So we were talking about misinformation in science communication. So there's a uh a great wealth of it in climate change science. Um, but then also healthcare science and misinformation.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Misinformation. Or disinformation is a difference, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

There is a difference.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Do you know what the difference is? Yeah. Yeah, tell me. So um misinformation can be some can be um communicated, but the person who's communicating the misinformation may actually believe that it's correct. Oh, I see. Disinformation is deliberate. Oh, I see. No, this isn't right. It's like a disinformation, it has a different intent behind it.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Okay, so if I truly believe that what I'm saying is going to cure your ailment.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

If you truly believe that my arthritic fingers, which can I have another little complaint about them? I now can't wear my wedding ring at all, just saying, or any ring at all. My hands are denuded of jewelry. Thank you. Um, but if if you came to me and said, Annie, your arthritis will be is caused by a parasite, um, and you genuinely believe that, and what was going to fix my arthritis was um ivermectin or a liver cleanse, a liver cleanse and ivermectin, and I don't know what else I'd be doing, and using aged urine, soaking my hands in aged urine, which is actually a thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Good one.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Anyway, if you thought that that would be misinformation, however, if you had developed a supplement that that you know is just full of baking powder and said this is going to cure it, that's disinformation. Okay. To the best of my knowledge, that is the distinction.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I think that sounds exactly right. So there was a lot of conversation about mis and disinformation in healthcare messaging. And you're right, it was like heaven on a stick because the best thing ever. It was just so many clever people coming together to talk. So the idea was that we would have a day of um lectures by different people, and then the second day we would break into groups and we would try and tackle this from different angles. My little group was charged with um the idea that you can inoculate people against mis and disinformation.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yeah, which I love, which I love. So for people listening, it's Melanie Traceett King also talks about uh inoculating people from disinformation by arming them with Yes, well, it's by arming them with a tiny little dose.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

So think of vaccination. Yeah, so arming them with a tiny little dose of misinformation so that the next time their body sees it, they recognize it.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

By using their critical thinking skills.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

And I did be you would have been perfect there because the whole thing was about critical information. But I was saying to you earlier that it was very, it was it was very cute and also very innocent because all these scientists in the room, yeah, all these PhDs in the room, yeah, and they're all saying, well, what we need to do is we need to um we need to teach people critical thinking. Yes. And we need to teach them the scientific method. Good idea, scientists. Great idea. And then we need to make really balanced and effective um social media videos. Yes. That that teach people these things. Great idea, scientists.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I'm there like laughing into my in in into my coffee, going, see, you you you people just don't even know Are they not exposed to what we are exposed to on the internet?

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I don't think they are. Because what I said to them, oh yeah, I mean, and that all sounds great, because they're all saying, you know, it's not it's not good to be polarizing. Polarizing videos really, you know, it really feeds the problem. And I went, if we'd have this conversation about um teaching people the scientific method, and I was like, if I made a video like that, it'd get zero views, nobody cares, zero interactions. But if you make something that engenders a feeling in somebody and it let's face it, anger is the easiest feeling or um outrage, outrage, then of course it gets Which is just anger on steroids, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

It gets pushed out by the algorithm. Yeah, so anyway.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

They were very cute. They were like, oh no, we'll we'll do it really scientifically.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

The problem is, of course, is that um science is nuanced and there is diffidence and hesitation around it, and no one is making, you know, large sweeping statements because they're careful, because they are scientists. And what people want more than anything is certainty. Yep. And there's really interesting research on how you are going to lead the happiest life you can be if you can entertain and no, I'll start that whole sentence again. Gee, that was close. That was North Shore Mobile Locksmith was fast. Yes, yeah. Sorry, we're now talking about the traffic going past us. Um, you are going to lead a much happier life if you can entertain the notion of lack of certainty. Right. Entertain and tolerate lack of certainty. Um, the reason we've got these um the rise of these right-wing parties in Australia at the moment, one neuron, as we call it, it's actually one nation. I love that. One neuron is really true. Yes, is that what they offer is certainty. This is the problem. So the the mouthpieces of what the one neuron party are now saying the problems that we have are to do with immigration. If you get rid of the immigrants, we'll be fine, right? Now that offers solved. Problem solved, that offers certainty. I know who to blame on my current problems. It's all great, right? Whereas, as we know, all problems are complex and solutions are complex, but that doesn't make people feel better. No, and it's not sexy.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Um pod mics. Um, the other thing that was a good theme of yesterday was that people uh I think generally people don't understand that science actually isn't it's not necessarily about facts. Can you explain that for people and me? Yeah, so the idea that science really is looking at a a claim and whether or not they can then disprove or prove the claim, the hypothesis, using the information that we have. Yeah. And also that science is constantly critiquing itself and constantly evolving. So what was true? I mean, I was looking at someone on my social media feed the this morning, and he was going on about um how I think it was the old, the old boring, um, the old boring one of sunscreens have got chemicals and you're putting it on your body and your skin is a sponge. Toxic! Toxic and your skin is a sponge. I was like, You skin's a sponge, it's a barrier, but anyway. Um, and you know, we used to think that asbestos was safe. Great. Um, and now we know it's not. So we we now, you know, we we think we currently think that these chemicals, these chemical sunscreens are safe, but what are we gonna know in the next however many years? Yes. And and I guess the the the flaw in that logic is that um Oh, that's what they're saying.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

That's what they're saying. So that's what they're saying. So if we just reframe that, uh, we used to think asbestos was safe, and in fact, we used to think smoking was safe. Yep. Right? Yep. Then they learnt along the way that that was incorrect. So on if you hold that notion over here, then you can say, how do you know at this point that they won't discover later on that sunscreens are toxic? Is that the premise?

SPEAKER_01 10:56

That was the premise.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

So can you shoot that down for me?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Therefore, don't wear sunscreen. So that was the uh that was the that was the message of his little post was who is this guy? Just some guy. Oh, some guy. I don't know, but he's he's in my he's in my crosshairs now. Right. Um don't wear it, just have cancer. Yes. So get skin cancer. Has not addressed that in his video at all that we know that melanoma is caused by UV exposure. Yeah. And we know that Australia, this guy's Australian, know that Australia is one of the, I think it's um national cancer almost, or we're the world leaders of melanoma or something. So proud, some kind of dubious honor.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

That's so beautiful. Anyway. Yeah, that's right. And then you make these, these sort of, they make these very spurious claims. I I noted uh it's not at all funny, and I was completely disgusted, and I'd actually um rang the Snakey Gherkin to discuss the the this post with him because somebody had um done a post that inferred that Richard Scollier, um, for those of you who um are not in Australia, Richard Scolia um is a was a scientist. He had made an incredible inroad into the treatment of melanoma. Um he had then tragically developed a glioblastoma, um, which he then passed away from, I think like a week ago now, isn't it? It was terrible. It was very terrible. Saddest thing. And what this post had said was that the glioblastoma um had been caused by the vaccines. And that and it was almost sort of in saying that he'd been given the Order of Australia, and then other scientists had all also been given the Order of Australia, and then they developed these things, and it was all somehow weirdly linked to the vaccine. And I I come back to it was a disgusting and an absolute insult to his memory. And I I come back to this this notion that you know this very simplistic notion of cause and effect, right? You know, you have the vaccine, you're just gonna die.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Why though not something more uh prevalent in his life? So why not um driving his car or drinking water or having a shower every day? Or why is it always the vaccine?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, it's an interesting question. Why is it always the vaccine?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah, dinner every night.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Some ubiquitous activity.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Why? I it we're mystified. They cannot, I mean, there was they cannot move past the the COVID vaccine. They cannot seem to move past it. I don't know why it is of such obsession in their brains. Yeah. Except that it's something, you know, in terms of um uh the idea of um had a complete mental block.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

So was it specifically the COVID vaccine that gave him his glioblastoma or was it all vaccines? No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Just just the COVID vaccine. I think it's the COVID vaccine.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

And it's identity protective cognition. I guess it's mainly that where you've uh they've identified with a group and the group gives them a sense of belonging.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

And um, you know, an identity, and then if they move outside that, if they start to refute some of these ideas or fight it, then they're going to be expelled from the group and they don't want that, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

But then just to play devil's advocate for the moment, is that a bit that is that dissimilar to how I feel in my group? Yesterday, when I was sitting in this room of really, really bright minds and clever thinkers and PhDs, I thought, oh, I belong here. Yeah, I belong here. Yeah. So what is the difference? I I I'm really asking, is there no difference? Well, I guess, like in my thinking, compared to their thinking. Well, it's from opposite angles.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Well, we know we know that we're we're tribally brained, right? We know that. And that we form we form um cohesion with a group incredibly quickly. We know that. So um let's say you on the symposium, did you sit with people at lunch? Or did you sit in the same chair? I did you did you form um relationships with people on it?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I try I did try because I didn't know a single person there. Did they hate me?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Did they absolutely fucking hate you?

SPEAKER_01 15:47

No, they I don't know. Maybe they do. I don't know. Influencer. I thought about that. She's strange. I'm glasses. I did actually have, I was saying to my David last night. It's so interesting when you have relationships, right? So relationships and you've got differing levels of relationships and circles. So I've got uh my good school friends who I've known since we were in year three, yeah, and then all the way up to people who I met for the first time yesterday. But because I was literally nobody else in that room knew me, and I I knew I knew nobody. Yeah, a lot of other people, so like I say, there was a lot of people from the CSIRO, and a lot of people came in little groups. Uh, that already knew each other. That already knew each other. So I was really that person on the, I was that wallflower on the side going, hi, can I sit with you? I was at lunch, it was like I was in the playground.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Were you a bit nervous?

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Hi, can I sit with you?

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Or not, or were you all right?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Um I'm not I'm not really a shrinking violet. So I was pretty okay to walk up to a table and go, hi, yeah, I'm here, you're here, you want to play.

unknown 16:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

But um I I had the opportunity to be whoever I wanted to be because nobody knew me. So I could be anybody. You can't really be like that with your school friends who you've known since you were 10 years old, because if you try to be somebody else, they're like, oh, that is such bullshit. You're not like that at all. You're actually like this. And you're like, yeah, that's right, so I am.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

But yesterday, because I knew nobody, and you could be whoever you want. I could be whoever I wanted. Did you find that quite liberating? I did. And also because every single bloody person I met went, I'm Dr. So-and-so. My PhD is in molecular whatever, and I work for XYZ University or CSIRO. Yeah, I was like, oh good lord. I can't, I can't just go in with, I'm, I'm Kate and and I work in a pharmacy. So I'd I went in with what? Wait for it. Yeah, do. I'm waiting. I'm Kate. Yeah. I'm a social media influencer. No. And health communicator. No. My background is in pharmacy. Truly. Yes. And but by the end of the second day, I was like. Rolled off the target. Oh, yeah. I was, I was so the first time I said it, I was almost like, God, I hope nobody vomits. I hope nobody vomits. And by the end of the day, I was I was all like, Yeah, brimming with confidence.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

It's hard to say because when people say, What do you do? I don't know. No, I don't even know what to say. What do you do? I go, I don't know. Well, it depends on the um on the context.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

A little bit on the context, but in this particular context, I just went, Oh, good lord.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Of course, it's interesting, isn't it? This idea of um just be yourself. I find that a very interesting notion because um who are we? And we're different in different contexts, and we're different as we grow and change. And I I I do like that idea of um, well, we're not that you can't ever find your true self because the the sense of a cohesive single self is is an illusion, and what we are is just a whole lot of different selves, and you know, like our brains are committee, right? Yeah. And it just depends who's chairing the committee on any given day, really, isn't it? Yeah. This idea that you're going to meditate and find the true you, like I just don't think it exists. It's a very interesting notion, but how do we get talking? Oh, I know why, I'll go back, go back, back, back, back, back. So to this idea that um, so when you found your you you you said you broke off into pods? Yes. Did you find when you broke off into the pod? Yes, that that you could sort of had a sense of cohesion with that group?

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yes, because um my pod then had to divide into five groups. So five groups within the one pod. So five pods, five pods divided into five groups, and then we had to come up with an idea, and our uh topic was inoculation against misinformation.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Hang on, who how many in your pod? In your pod?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

I would say about fifty in the pod. Yeah, and then So say say for easy maths, it was 250 people into five pods, 50 people in the pod, 50 people divided by four or five pods. So it's about ten. So about ten people in the pod.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

And you so you ended up with ten people?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

So I ended up around a table of about ten people. Right. And I felt very uh I felt I felt very aligned with everybody in my pod, but then the idea that we came up with, so then the idea was that we would pitch our ideas within our pod and our one pod would take our one idea.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

And what did did you pitch your ideas?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

We pitched our ideas, but actually everybody's idea was very similar. So even though we had five little groups, we we all which which then made us feel even more validated because we all come up with this very similar idea independently. Right. And then when the five pods all pitched their idea at the end, yeah, it was again very, very similar.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

I guess you all come from a sort of a similar scientific background.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Well, that's right, but but that's that feed-forward, you know, kind of I've been I'm looking now for people who validate what I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

I think that the the the thing about um identity protective cognition, if we go back to that, is that if you had spent, I don't know, an entire day with your 10 people, right? Let's just say. Um and then what what they know, which is really super interesting, is if somebody then said something negative about somebody in your group, you would all you would probably automatically go in to defend them. Like we form um this sort of cohesive notion around a group really, really super quickly. And then what happens is very rapidly, and this is of course all um subconscious, is that we start to other people. I'm not saying you did this, but unless we watch it, once we have formed a group, which is very, very easy to do, our empathy levels towards that group are going to be much higher than than outsiders, and that's how we know that empathy can you gotta be suspicious about empathy because it can be weaponized. Whereas compassion is compassion for all. But that idea that you form a group, this is your group, you must protect the group. And then we start to think that this group that I am in is probably superior to other groups. And then we start to defend it. And that notion, of course, is quite archaic, and it's a protective mechanism, right? Because this is my tribe, we're going to hunker down together, and that's how we're going to defend ourselves. So in terms of identity protective cognition, you can let's just say you're in this sort of scientific environment you were in. If somebody started to say something, you know, like, I got up this morning and I washed in aged urine and I've got some good evidence for that, the critical thinking part of your brain would hopefully start to go, just because you are part of this group, I don't believe that. And that is the application of critical thinking that would override the idea of identity with a group. You hope. You would hope. You would hope. And that's why I've got somebody in my environment at the moment that's anti-climate change. And so the notion is well, if you're going to be anti-climate change and you you form a position, if you're going to use critical thinking, then you have to try and disprove that.

unknown 23:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Right? Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Your own position. We all should be trying to disprove our own position. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

I think so, but that's the um No, I've I've got a a very dear friend who's very liberal thinking, as in um small hull liberal thinking and um but actively goes out and listens to Sky News and the Yeah, because he Murdock. Yeah, because he's trying to constantly Oh oh to challenge himself. To challenge himself, I know. Really good. I know. Oh no, oh no, he gets the gold star, but um I can't do it. No, well, I I I don't seem to be able to do it either because I end up I tend to end up just having arguments. So even when I'm looking at this guy on the socials this morning and he's talking about not wearing sunscreen. So actually, I mean he did say that.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Oh, that guy. Yeah. That's not the same guy that listens to Sky News.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

No, no, no, no, no, no. My my my my my dear friends listens to Sky News and this other weirdo on Instagram who just came up on my feed was the guy against the harsh chemicals in sunscreen. Oh god. But even but when I'm watching the harsh the harsh chemicals in sunscreen video, I'm not I'm not sitting there going, hang on, let's just evaluate your reaction to this and challenge your own thinking around it. I'm just there yelling at my phone, going, don't be an idiot.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Well, I mean, there because presumably this is not the first time that you have encountered pseudoscience. No. Right? If this was the first time that you would ever encounter in your whole life somebody saying something like that, I imagine you'd you would go, oh, hang on, that flies in the face of let me think. But we we are we are if there's a tsunami of this stuff, especially for like you or I, or any of us that move in this environment, that we're swamped with every day. So I'm not every time I see something nutsy, I don't either. I don't go, oh, let me rethink about aged urine and ivermectin because I know at this point, because I've done the analysis. Yeah, yeah. You have to, you know, we have to just use judgment. You know, I I I am highly suspicious of anything that offers a simplistic cure to things that I know are highly complex.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

And isn't that the thing that your parents taught you when you were little, which is, you know, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Yes. But it has such a grounding in truth, that statement, because if that's like these um multivitamin supplements or whatever. I if if it's doing all of these jobs, then doesn't that give you pause to go, hang on, that doesn't what do you mean? Oh, so I'm not a I'm not a big believer in well, I'm not a big supplement believer anyway, as you know, but especially a multivitamin, because you you're you've you've got to think like what are you what are you hoping to achieve? With a multivitamin. Well what but even if you're looking for a supplement of any kind, what are you hoping to achieve? So you've got arthritis. If you wanted a supplement, you'd be like, what am I hoping to achieve? A decrease in inflammation in my fingers. Correct. Right? Okay. Hence tumor except everyone telling me to take tumor. Okay, so I can I can s I can see I can see the thought process there because they're saying tumorics, anti-inflammatory. But what they're not saying is take this multivitamin because part of this multivitamin may contain something that is an anti-inflammatory, but it's also got all these other things in it.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah. You're like, I just want I just want the thing to do the job. Well, I think the whole multi, the promise of a um a multivitamin is that generic notion of health uh uh wellness. Wellness. Yeah. I'm going to be um weller. Yeah, that's right. I'm gonna be well plus plus. I'm gonna yeah, that's right. I walk past uh a chiropractor and it uh it said, you know, we we can't restore you to optimum health. Well, can you?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah, but also awesome. That's so generic because what does it mean? Because what what does optimum mean?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

I don't know. See, and then I just get exhausted by it.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

And I mean, I I the thing is, even with see, look at that finger, it's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

It's like a little sausage. It's like a sausage.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Listeners, it's like the rest of my fingers look a bit knobly, but I've got this one finger and it's like a frigging sausage just sitting there, not bending. It's like a little chicken chip a later. It is like a little chicken chip a later. Maybe, yeah. It is, I'm sure I've fried that on a pan or something. I know, because it's it's exactly what it looks like. It's really quite ugly. It's really ugly and horrible. Yeah. And I have to, and hopefully, when I move my hands when I'm talking, people don't go, oh, why you.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So I would love it to be fixed. Have you seen um everything everywhere all at the time? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

You know how you know how everything everywhere all at once. All at once.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

You know how her hands turn into sausage fingers?

SPEAKER_00 28:29

I know it's what's my finger is. And what if they all go like that? Do you think they might? Yeah. I think then David will have to leave you because well they all will just haven't. Look at that one. Look at that first one. She's now pointing out the fact that I've got some sort of nodule or something or some and another anyway. It's not I'm not topic, sorry. It's I'm not loving the hand thing. Um, it's more than the looks, it um the look of it, it just keeps me awake and I frigging can't do anything with a couple of my fingers. But anyway. So people say to me, have turmeric. Now, if you look at the data around turmeric, I'd need to be eating like two kilos a day. Electric tons of it. And it t it tastes like frigging mud. Like, oh, what's happened to my video? It got bored. It did go, it got bored with us crapping on.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

It was the sausage fingers. It just went, oh goodness, yeah. You can't possibly be showing people sausage fingers. I don't actually think you're recording. Fuck. Now you're recording. Oh my god almighty, what is wrong with me? I don't think you're you're actually what they call a noob. What is that? Isn't that someone who's afraid of technology?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

No, um, just more inept. Inept afraid. I'm just inept. That's really disappointing to you.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

You probably tried to press the record button with your sausage finger.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

With my chicken chip a lotter.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

With your chip alata, and it didn't register it because it's not a chip a lotter interface.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

It's like, what where's your finger? It's like I don't Okay, so I didn't record that, but you've recorded it.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Well, I'm recording it on the and you have to send that to me. But I'm not recording it on a video. Anyway, people will have to go without the vision of us hunkered down in your car over our pod mics with with people trying to have coffee, I would say, a metre away.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

A metre away, having a normal life.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Having a normal conversation in in real life.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Without large microphones in their face. Well, they don't have what did we just what did we discuss? We've discussed um a little bit of identity protective cognition. We've discussed your scientific symposium.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah, it was really very uplifting. Yeah. It was really very nice to be with people who are also thinking about these things in really serious ways. It was very I was very It's reassuring, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

It is, it was very reassuring. It's like when I go to the skeptics when I talk. Can we talk about how great I was at the skeptics the other night?

SPEAKER_01 30:46

You were actually really good. You were. It was it was really, really um It's a disturbing thing that happened, wasn't it? It is, it is disturbing, but also disturbing was your um information around the uh declination rates of vaccine uptake in terrible across the world. Is it it is it is terrible, and that is probably a topic.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

That's a whole nother topic about what's going to happen to us if we don't arrest the decline in in vaccinations. So we've got a big job ahead of us, and anybody out there, wherever you are in the world, please make sure that you are holding the line when it comes to health and wellness, um miss and disinformation, you know, as the best to the best of your ability if you can actually start to have discussions with people because it's really dangerous. It's dangerous, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 31:45

And and I guess And we don't like it. We don't we don't like it. We we also just uh don't want you to be spending your money on stuff that uh isn't you know, just do the boring things.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Just do the boring things. It's what we said last time. Yeah. If you want to boost your immune system, what are you gonna do? Go to bed. And then what else?

SPEAKER_01 32:07

If you want to boost your immune system, well we discussed how boost Disgust. That's sorry, that's just how I feel. We discussed boosting your immune system isn't what you want because then you'd have an autoimmune disease. Correct. So if you are unwell, yes, self-isolate as much as possible so as not to spread it around because that's a really community-minded thing to do. What else? Go to bed nice and early, lots of lots of sleep, lots of rest. Lower your expectations. You are in fact unwell. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

And um in order to try and not get sick, what do I have to do?

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Well, again, yeah, keeping keeping healthy. Well, look, drinking water, listen to this. Oh, that's gonna be that's gonna sound amazing. That's ASMR, people. Yeah. Does everybody feel calm and fantastic now after listening to me drink water? Hide hydration, good nutrition, stay as fit and healthy as you possibly can. Good night's sleep. Yeah, and and if you actually have uh a lowered immunity, so if you're one of those poor people who um actually I don't know, if you're on chemotherapy or you've got a lower immunity for whatever reason, then wear a mask for yourself. 100%. And if you happen to be unwell and you can't self-isolate, then wear a mask for other people. Yeah, and and get vaccinated. Vaccinated.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Get vaccinated. Get vaccinated. I noticed on the pit, um, so David and I watching the pit so good. We have to watch it um through sort of, you know, uh behind a cushion because of the amount of cutting into a lot of um sort of purulent is it purulent flesh? There's a lot there's a lot of gore. There's a lot of gore.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

It's it's pretty well. I mean, it's medicine. Yeah, it's right.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

It's emergency medicine. And so what somebody came into the waiting room and she with a coughing child, and somebody else had said, put a mask on your on your child, and she said, I don't wear a mask as it's a load of crap. Anyway, yeah. So then she went in and she'd done something, and so she had to have her, she had to go into surgery, and she'd been saying, I don't wear a mask, as a you know, it's fauci crap. Anyway, so then he said, Okay, you're gonna need surgery. He's he said, So I'm assuming when you go into surgery, you're totally fine about not wearing the surgeons not wearing masks. Yes, okay, and she went, Oh. Yeah. Because suddenly it's you know, suddenly, yeah, then you want to wear a mask. So do wear a mask, don't buy vitamins and minerals and supplements that are saying we're going to boost your immune system because they won't. Um, take care of yourself as best you can. It's pointless saying people don't get stressed because life is inherently stressful. But do some exercise. That's a great way to counter, isn't it? Yes, because it's really good. Um, and so good. I think we've covered in a generic way some interesting topics, and we shall join you again next week because we're writing our little project. Project. We're writing a little project which we'll let you know about. It's really good. So excited. Get excited, people. Yeah, we get get excited, grab life by the horns and run with it. Is that the uh metaphor that I messed up then? You can't grab something by the horns and run with it, can you? Thought you were gonna say balls. Because running, grabbing something by the horns, if you grab the horns of something and then ran, it would gore you. It would be awkward um physically to do that. But it rains? No, anyway, we're gonna get back to you next week with the correct metaphor. Um, so lovely to talk from Kate and I. Um I hope wherever you are in the world, listeners, that you are remaining safe, taking care of yourself, um, staying well, and always keeping your critical thinking hats firmly on your head. See you later. Bye. Everything.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

And now we have to leave. I I now have to leave the car. You've got to get out of the car.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

But people are gonna look at me. Yeah, weirdly, weirdly with all your fat mics. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Luckily, I've got the height of a rhinoceros. Okay, bye.