Looksmaxxing, Menopause and Taking a Hammer to Your Jaw

Recorded in the car with Annie, this episode begins with a very important question: why is Kate wearing a star-shaped pimple patch on her forehead?

The answer leads us into testosterone treatment for hypoactive sexual desire disorder, hormonal changes through menopause, and the potential role of menopausal hormone therapy and testosterone replacement for appropriately selected women.

Then we enter the strange world of looksmaxxing: soft maxxing, hard maxxing, Botox, injectables, plastic surgery, gym memberships, hair dye, expensive clothes and, at the more extreme end, people taking a hammer to their own jaw in pursuit of a sharper face.

Women have been encouraged to modify their appearance forever, so is looksmaxxing genuinely something new, or is it old beauty pressure repackaged in internet language?

And where is the line between looking after yourself, changing something you dislike, trying to prevent ageing and becoming convinced that your perfectly ordinary human face is a problem that needs to be solved?

We also ask what people really mean when they talk about longevity. Is it living longer, living better, staying attractive for longer, or simply another wellness word that can be used to sell almost anything?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to On the Moons, where we have conversations about hormones, midlife, and the moments that make us wonder, is it just me? I'm Kate. I'm a 48-year-old pharmacist and newly minted perimenopausal oversharer. This is where we talk openly about the changes we aren't prepared for, so we never have to feel alone in them again. I acknowledge the Camaragle people of the Iora Nation, the traditional custodians of the land which I am recording today. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and I extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening. Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. Gonna start recording. Are we recording? Yes. Everyone is now recording.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

We are now recording, and hello listeners. Here we are again. It's Kate and Annie in the car, podding in the car. We call it pod from car. Pod from car. It's not very imaginative because do you remember like comedians in cars? Yeah, do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

That is true. Pod from car though, it's very descriptive.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Pod from car. Mm-mm. People won't be confused. Yeah, it's true. It is in fact what we're doing. And um, I just wanted to talk to you, um, Kate, about the fact I'd like to improve my looks.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Do you have any ideas on how I could do that? I thought you were going to say to me, I want to talk to you about the fact that you're wearing a star sticker on your forehead, and I was gonna say, it's because I'm looks maxing.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah. Oh, actually, you have got, well, um you have got a star on your forehead. Yeah. And why why? Well, I don't know that it is helping, but just to be perfectly honest.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Because I had a little I had a little pimple up there and I thought, oh, you know the way, you know the best way not to draw attention to the fact that this is put a big pink star. Yeah. So it's a star, so for people who aren't able to join us visually, it is like it is like, yes, good choice. It's like a star that you might give on a child in kindergarten if they did particularly good spelling work or a drawing. A drawing. Yeah, like a gold star, but mine is mine's pink, and it's actually a little colloidal um Oh yeah, I know about these things. I see it in the back of buses. That's it. So it's a pimple patch, and my 18-year-old daughter gave it me because I have an unsightly.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Are you surprised before we get on to our bigger topic, but are you surprised that at your age you would still get a pimple?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Well, I'm actually not surprised because I, as you know, am on testosterone, and testosterone does have the side effect of um of pimples. Why are you on testosterone? Well, for thanks for asking, Annie. Yeah, I know. Okay, so now, okay. Um in Australia, it's only TGA listed for HSDD. What's that you ask? Oh, hang on. What's HSDD, Kate? Thanks for asking. It's hypoactive sexual desire disorder. Oh. Yeah. So that is the TGA approval. As so that's what that's what the guideline, that that's what it's for for the it's not in the menopause. Hyperactive. Hypo, no, hypo, not hyper. Oh, hypo, as it's under, under, as in low libido. Thank you. But as we know in menopause, all your, you know, your hormones, your testosterone level is pretty much declining since it peaked when you were 25. Yeah. Depressing, isn't it? It is a bit depressing. Flammeting. And I am I'm skinny and struggle to lay down muscles. So it's got a whole bunch of other benefits, but the only reason in Australia the TGAs listed it is for hypoactive sexual desire disorder. So um, but it's Did you have to say you had that? So my f my GP, which was amaz who is amazing, when I went in for my uh health check and we started on all the hormones, whatever. She actually just did a great history and but you know, just basically said Try this. Well, she said, and what's your sex life in libido like? And I went, well, yeah. And I went, oh, you know, I guess it's Yeah, you know, it's a job done. You know, I can I can roster it in. It's it's not unpleasant. Yeah. But you know, I wouldn't say I was having After dinner and before your book. Yeah, like after the recycling, you know, from from the flight of the concourse, recycling that's not part of it, but it is important. Um and she said, Oh well, let's, since we're doing all your other hormones, well, it started on all other, yeah. So I started on progesterone and estrogen. She said, Well, let's do a um androgen test. And that's not that's not the androgen test is not to see necessarily what the level is, because a level is just a level in time, you know, they fluctuate throughout the day. Yeah. But rather to see if you can replace it by giving it transdermally. So to see if you can actually absorb it through the skin. So you do an androgen level to start, and then six weeks later you do another androgen level. And if you haven't had horrendous side effects, which I haven't, I mean I've got one tiny little pimple, which actually probably you couldn't see if I didn't have a pick stick.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

I don't have excess hair. I'm not excess hairy, am I? Not that I can I I would not describe you as excessively hairy. I I could be described as excess hairy.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I'm not excessively hairy, and I haven't got a masculine deep voice, and I'm not I'm not ra I'm not any more rageful than I ever was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

You're not like you haven't got out of your car and tried to clonk someone in traffic.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

I haven't, so I think I'm tolerating it very well. All right. How did we get here? Oh, well, I maybe that maybe that actually dovetails in quite nicely with our conversation today about maximum.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

See if you can make a really good, sensationally smooth segue. Did you that was very good alliteration, wasn't it? Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

I'm going to off you go. I'm going to segue because today I wanted to talk to you about the idea of looks maxing. Oh, do describe what it is. Can I get it? And will I look better? Well, you can get it if you would like to take a hammer to your jawline. I'm fine with that. And just hammer it into the shape that you want. Okay. Yep. And it sounds good. I hear that So the most famous, I suppose, person on the socials is his name is Clavicular. Yes. And hasn't he been in trouble recently? He's been in trouble recently because he did he not he overdosed on something. His YouTube video or something, like in real life or something.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Oh yeah, I think that's I think that's right. But it's surprising, isn't it, that even when you um uh achieve the the level of um physical perfection that you fought for fought for that you don't immediately become super happy and satisfied. Isn't that surprising?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

He has said that he can't have a relationship because he's had so much. So I'm pretty enough. Uh no, because he actually doesn't have a lifestyle that can sustain a relationship with anybody else other than himself. And he's had so much testosterone that he can no longer get an erection, I think. What? Yeah, so he's actually he's actually done quite open about just do explain what he's done.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Just because not everybody, like for for us, because we we sadly trawl around social media um are aware of looks maxing. I'm not actually, I haven't done a deep dive into it, but I'm sort of, you know, peripherally aware of it. But some people may not be aware of it, so why don't you describe what it is, Kate?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

I am not across maxing. I know that there's a whole lot of there's a whole bunch of different kinds of maxing. So you could do sleep maxing, which is where you I believe what you do is you have a nice dark shower and then you uh cool the room to a certain temperature and you get in and you've got your white noise machine or your brown noise machine on and you have your pillows all set up right and you put a mask over your eyes and that's sleep maxing. That do you know what you while you talked about that?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

That's just how you go to bed every night. No, it's it's really not. But what if if I uh attempted to attain that level of pre-sleep organization, I'd be so stressed. By the time I got into bed, I'd be so stressed had I left out, you know, one of the steps. One of the steps along the way, and would I have to start again?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

You'd have to start again.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Would I have to go back into the shower and then?

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Your OCD would make you start again.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

And what if I fell over? I mean, that's just okay, so that's sleep maxing. There's a whole lot of different kinds of maxing, but looks maxing is the and So it's just another word for just excessively focusing on something, correct?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yes, is it is it is it a diff- is it a nicer way of saying narcissism? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah, well it's pretty narcissistic. And there's a high degree of self-focus.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

There's soft maxing and hard maxing, apparently, and soft maxing is Do describe Well, I think soft maxing is stuff like your skincare routine. Maybe you've got a 12-step skincare routine. Yeah. Or you go to the gym, or perhaps you take a supplement, or that's soft maxing. That's soft maxing. Hang on, this is across both genders, all genders. All genders, but it seems to be. Looks maxing is more male, isn't it? It I think looks maxing, hard maxing, which is where you then have um actual interventions. So where they take I I don't know if you've seen videos of these poor little boys, and they take um mallets to their jaw and they hit their they hit their jaws to cause these little micro fractures that then change the shape of the jawline. And they they have all these um Sounds valid. They have all these mouth exercises that they do called muling, where they're trying to work the muscles in their jaw. I know, bless them.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Alright, so here we've got this uh all right, sort of generation of boys, yes, correct? That are now exposed on social media to this notion of looks maxing. I think so, yeah. My question though is I have many questions. Let's start with yours.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Well, one of my first questions was when when I when I heard about this, I thought haven't women been doing this for forever? Ever. So haven't women been getting collagen in their lips. Forever.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

And there's that that now ubiquity of of appearance, right? Where because it's the it's the big lips, the the pronounced eyebrows, the straight hair, the coffin nails, right? And the very, very, very Botox face. I mean, that's not that's not new, is it? That's not new to women. No, but so there'sn't there's now this sort of terrible narcissistic tsunami of you have to look a certain. It's the same thing. It's like a uniform.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

But they're really they're really, really open about it. So they're really open about the fact that they are so what they're meant to be trying, I think what they're meant to be trying to do is make the most of what they've got, you know. So if they are if they Maximising. That's right. So they but mm it's it's what I like about it is it's maxing M-A-X-X-I-N-G. So every time I try to put it into my um, anytime I try to type it, my my spell checker changes it to maxing with just one X anyway. Of course it does because it's hates it. Hate the idea. Yeah. But I hate the idea. Um But I guess I was thinking that if everybody who is trying to make the most out of what their mama gave them, they all end up looking a little bit the same, don't they? They all end up. It's not like anybody's gone, actually, I'm quite big boned, and you know, m maybe I've got quite big thighs or quite a big I don't know. Yeah. But that's the way I am, so I'm gonna maximize that. So I'm really gonna work on my legs and I'm really gonna No, everybody just seems to want to be skinny. It's still like lean is lean is king.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Oh, lean is king, and as we as we well know, healthy, you know, healthy and fit strong is just code for thin. It's all just code. It's all code for lean. Well, yeah, it's thin. You've just got to be thin. And I mean what it's it's just so um, it's so astonishingly banal, isn't it? In that the complexity of what we can bring to the world as humans, right, is now sort of reduced to this very um sort of highly specific, sort of devolved notion of this one look, right? Yeah and it's just your look. So the idea of you know, your intellect and and your sense of humour and your compassion and whatever it is that you're interested in, particularly interested in doing, and your your spotting ability are all sidelined, um, and all it's about now is um is looks maxing. And as we know, looks last forever. That's what I've noticed as I've got older, that I look ex I I still look amazing like I did when I was 20.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Well, luckily for you, who's that German guy, Christian Christian, he's a billionaire. He's the guy who was behind the idea of the enhanced games. He's a German billionaire. He owns a whole bunch of I got nothing. Anyway, his name is I could look him up. His name's Christian something, Christian something German. He was uh 21 when he was at university, and he somehow started a pharmaceutical company with his with two of his professors. I'm not entirely sure how, and they ended up selling that pharmaceutical company for to a larger pharmaceutical company for billions, loads and loads of money. So he became a millionaire at age 25. And so he's sort of gone on, but he's he's that he's the one that was like, we'll do the um advanced games, and instead of his whole argument behind that was well wada, so the world anti-doping agency. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got a list that's banned. Yeah. So what the um enhanced game has what you like. No, they don't. They have a list and it's whatever is FDA approved. So it's not that it's not that you can use banned substances. Yeah. If it's on if the FDA have approved it, you can use it. Yeah. So that was his that was his idea behind that. But he also has a whole he's the psilocybin mushroom psilocybin one um for enhanced cognition and depression and and stuff. But I suppose I was thinking on this um on the self-improvement continuum, yeah. Where you've got go to the gym and eat well at one end and wash your face. Wash your face and don't eat too much crap. Yeah. So you've got all of that at one end, and then at the other end you've got hit your jaw with a hammer and But where does he sit in all of it? So he's right he's right at the jaw hitting end? Yeah, yeah. He's right at the end. He's at the jaw hitting end. He's at the jaw hitting end with his.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

And he's he's got a whole bunch of companies who are working on longevity uh medications and but there's sort of a di- is that not a different sort of tendril Well, that's what I'm asking. Well, I don't know. I mean, there's something so sort of primitive and sort of caveman about whacking yourself on the face with a mallet. Oh, it's a bit sad. I mean, it's a bit sad. It is very sad. It's very sad. I've got more things to get sad about than that though. But I mean it is sad, but come on. Whereas he's at the I don't know. I mean, I guess it's all the notion of this you can live forever and you know, extended lifespan, of course, is is incredibly elitist, isn't it? It it is, it is.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Having said that, so he was he's talking about peptides and how the GLP ones, which are peptides, sort of the a a continuation of this. And I said I was talking with my David last night about it as well, because my husband my husband. Um because I was saying to him, well, statins, for example, yeah, aren't they a longevity medication?

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah. So where Well, if you're fighting Okay, so then also um you know, if you're going to take medication for diabetes. Yeah. Which is blood pressure. Which is what? What do you take for diabetes?

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Oh, well, insulin.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Insulin, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Metformin or those. And what do you take for for high blood pressure? Oh, well, any number of blood pressure lowering things. But they're but they're all in aid of you, you know, e i improving your Well, they reducing your risk of cardiovascular disease. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

They are, but they they are those things you've just mentioned are interventionist. You've already got some condition. You're not going to take a statin or metformin if you don't have a condition. Whereas what I see this as a level above because these um these people that we're talking about, they don't actually have anything wrong with them.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

No, that's right. So you're not it's not like you're returning anything to baseline. It's not like something's wrong and you're returning it to baseline. You've got baseline. You've got and now you're going to extend baseline. But you know there's all those there's all those people that take microdoses of the GLP ones for whatever reason. Yeah, why? Well, I think they think it's because it's anti-inflammatory, and because inflammation's the new black. Inflammation is the new black. So therefore, if you long-term reduce inflammation and if you take them at such small doses, then they don't suppress your appetite. You know, so I'm not saying this is mainstream medicine, I'm saying this is what No, but microdosing is definitely out there.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

And of course, in terms of um inflammation, hasn't it been proved again and again that the only thing that really, really, really works is a Mediterranean diet with a whole lot of olive oil, isn't that correct?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Well, I don't know. I mean I think now they think that the the GLP ones are doing a good job of reducing inflammation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then all the other Well, if you're if you have um obesity would have to help, wouldn't it, reducing the obesity. But then they had at ASCO, which is the American Society of Clinical Oncology, it's probably the biggest conference of medical oncologists in the world. David went um David goes semi-regularly. That's your husband.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

They sit in um So for listeners who may not be aware, Kate's husband is an oncologist.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

And they have these lectures where there's 30,000 of them in a stadium. That's how big it is. And there was a number uh at least I think more than one, but at least at least one paper presented where they were using GLP1s and it had been it was a small study and it was just really proving that this is a good area to do more research in. But it was metastatic, it reduces the it had reduced the risk of metastatic disease in this particular group of patients. Not saying that everyone should go out and start taking their GLP one because it reduces metastatic cancer, but basically they were just saying this is interesting science, we should think about this more.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

So what I'm I suppose my point there was that So for anybody who's unaware, GLP ones are the um the wagovies.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yes, yeah, glucagon-like peptide. So it's uh uh the semaglutide, which is ozempic and wagovey, and to zeptide.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

They are used for diabetes in their original That's right, incarnation. And they are now used accidentally found by by people.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Oh. Yeah, so people accidentally found that they were losing weight on them.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they co-opted and thought, here we can make a bucket load of money. I have obviously nothing against them.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

I think No, I think they're I think they're super I mean I think they probably I think if you looked at the amount of amount of money that the government spends on people who have health conditions related to being obese. Yeah. And the amount of money that it would cost them to fund these medications, I think it would you know anyway, but I'm not a health economist, so Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so back so back to the looks maxing. Back to looks maxing. So then where like if you I mean I I've told people before, but I had I've had Botox in my forehead. Is that is that I mean, I guess that am I technically looks maxing? I I go to the gym, am I looks maxing?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Well no, then then you're in a very interesting area, aren't you, of it well it's I guess what is w which what is the motivator behind what you do? So sorry, I got with one of our phones. Sorry, that was all that listeners. Um I take me, I'm fairly exercise positive. Positive, um, a bit a little bit obsessive perhaps. Um and most of my motivation towards the level of exercise that I do is about reducing my chances of developing diseases. It also is exceptionally good for my um mental health. Absolutely. Right, really, really good. Now, do I go to the gym in order to, you know, look brilliant on the beach in a bikini? No. No, I don't. No, I don't. Side effect. But no, I do look amazing. Sorry to say that. But no, I don't I don't do it fundamentally for the way I look. I do it because I'm my mother had Alzheimer's. I don't want it.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

No.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

So I've looked at the data and I understand that exercise and keeping your brain stimulated and having good social contact is very good to diminish my chances of developing it. So that's what I do, and I have good nutrition. So, but I guess it's a different motivator to simply going to the gym in order that people go, My God, you look incredible. Look how shredded you are. Yeah, and and not that anybody would say that to me.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

I say it to you all the time. I say it to you all the time. You are so hot right now. Thank you. I I can just see you on the beach in your what are those um Um yeah. What are those bikinis where they 90% of your bum is out? Anyway. I'm only I'm only jealous because obviously if I walked around like that, I'd get a melanoma. Um we are at an age where we I mean, I'm also in it for the health span, aren't I? I mean I'm I'm in it to age well, not get osteoporosis, so not be a crumble when I'm 80, to be actually able to, you know, pick up my shopping and walk up the stairs when I'm when I'm older. Yeah. And also for the immediate benefit every day of the fact that, as you say, mental health-wise, it's amazing. Um and it helps you sleep better, which then helps you, you know, everything, everything. Everything, everything, everything, everything. Everything positive. I guess that doesn't explain, in my case, the Botox. Um what am I doing now? I mean, I'm doing that purely for vanity, aren't I?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah, well, of course. And um, you know, I too have had some, and also I get my hair dyed. Yeah, right, right. So And you've, you know, we've painted our nails. I mean, there's I guess you're looking at a a grade, are we not, of maxing. I think that we've got low grade soft maxing, right? Because I'm not particularly doing anything that is going to potentially cause me harm or is wildly expensive, and neither are you, right? Well, I don't know. The the the the nails are like the nails are expensive, and also you know that they're going to screw your nails. I did them for years and my nails are screwed. But it's okay. Fair enough, yeah. Fair enough. Fair point. Okay, yeah, do it. Knock yourself out. Yeah. Um, do what you can. Yeah. Um, so yeah, and I I I mean, you know, I I like clothes and I want to look nice. So I guess it you know, there is a portion of say my focus that is on maximising my potential appeal physically.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

And it's and it it it's what you I guess I don't know, is the difference you're maxing for yourself. Well, am I? Well, are you? Am I? Well you're not maxing for David, I guess. I'm guessing for your David. I mean, I know I'm not maxing for my David because he I'm certainly not getting Botox for him because every time I tell him I'm getting it, he rolls his eyes.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Oh yeah, oh I see what you mean. I mean, we we we're you know, we're not an island, right? So you you we we get ourselves reflected back by our social contact, do we not? Our broad social contact. So, you know, I might get my hair done and then someone will say to me, Oh gee, your hair looks nice, and then that makes me I get a bit of a hit from that. Right. And I think uh you know, we're probably not still trying to, you know, in the primary phase of trying to attract a mate. No please. No please, no, no please to that. One's enough. One's plenty and it's good. But uh so it's not that, but we we want to see ourselves reflected back positively, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

And we do like getting a compliment. Yeah, oh yeah, of course. Of course, yeah, that thrives. Of course. But there is m but so you sort of looks max in that, you know, you'll do little bits and pieces, but also you've you've got a um a very strong intellect and you've got a really good sense of humour and you're highly ethical and you you think a lot about things, so you've got there is many aspects to your personality and who you are in the world. So we would say that you have a sort of a balanced approach. If I'm beating myself around the head with a mallet in order to um increase my jawline and then muling, which sounds like a cat in pain. Doesn't it though?

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah. That's what I thought as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah, um, then my focus of who I am in the world and what is attractive about me is very, very, very narrow. Right?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

So it interest yeah, and and I can sort of understand that a bit more. So if I'm a 15-year-old boy who is is socially inept or or whatever it is, of course. I I can sort of understand then why they would want to get into looks maxing because they're struggling with their place in in society. Of course. I then what am I doing? Truly, like why am I bothering with my nails and my b because if Because you want to feel better about yourself, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

You walk through the world. But then that's but that's a bit ridiculous, isn't it? Well, not really, because it's it it comes back, I think, to the same thing of it's a percentage of your focus.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Right, it's a it's a percentage. So there's a small there's a percentage of your focus where in order to fit into the context of your life, right, you need to look presentable, um, you need to feel attractive, and that makes you feel as if you can achieve more. I know I feel better about getting on with it or achieving something if if I've groomed myself and I have a nice skirt on. I just feel better. Yeah. I go out with David. I don't, you know, I'm not trying to attract him anymore as a mate because he's been stuck with me for over 30 years, but I always I'll put on a dress and I'll put on some makeup and I'll Yeah. And he he does similarly. He knows he puts on his suit and it's like. So yeah, that's right. So why do we do that? I think it's part of a um sort of you feel the benefit. Yeah, and and and you fit into the social fabric, you sort of fit into the social fabric. But it's uh it's a portion, it's a percentage of our focus. So and I think I always remember saying to my daughter uh when she was in high school and um talking about what she was gonna do when she left and I don't know, I shed pimples or something. And I said to her, just remember that your looks are going to fade. They they they are ephemeral. Your intellect you know, until you're very, very old is gonna remain intact. Work on that.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's very good advice, and also I imagine fell on deaf ears to the poor 17-year-old who was going to school with pupils.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Well, no, she I mean she she she interestingly, and I think the same with your kids, has always had a a strong driver to be, you know, an intelligent person with a good career in the world, right? Yes, yes, yes. But what's what's happening with these kids that are being um pulled into this looks maxing, these boys, this culture, and it's part of the Andrew Tate, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

I don't know about that. I imagine because I like to blame him for lots of things. I like to blame him, but I I personally haven't heard his name mentioned mentioned, but I haven't also spent a very long time in this world because because actually, honestly, I suppose I found it a tiny bit boring.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

And I I just find it it's just it it is boring. Yeah, it's just like what's been happening to women, but now we're doing it to men. And then that there's that whole notion of we're back in the world of identity protective cognition where this is what my cohort is doing. If I want to fit in, if I want to be part of it, if I don't want to be expelled from this tribe, then I have to do it too. So you've got that broader context, and also to your point, the smaller one or the more individual context, which is I don't feel like I fit in, but now if I beat myself around the cheeks with a mallet, then I'm gonna look better, and then girls are gonna fall for me. Oh god, oh god, it's so stupid. I know. It is.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

I mean, being very hard.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

It's very it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Well, I I don't know. Uh what do we what do we do? Uh raise resilient children. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm always when we have these conversations just pathetically grateful that this isn't none of this is my problem. Me too, me too. So I haven't got a son who's beating his jaw with a mallet. I don't have a daughter who same. Yeah, so I just think Oh thank goodness.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Well, I think Yeah, then it's very, very tricky because you've got, you know, the urge of the tribe, right? Yeah, pulling on their consciousness, and then you've got whatever they're being told at home. And I think it's very difficult for parents um to have to sort of wage a war because it's a big war, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Well, it is, and also I don't I'm now just talking about um the society that I know, so I don't know if this is applicable in other societies, but I imagine that it is. When we have when there's such pressure for both parents to work full-time to be able to afford things, then you either have um there's only a certain number of hours in the day, I suppose. I guess I was thinking when my children were like when when my children, when my children were lucky, when my children were younger, um and I worked full-time when what age was she? She she must have been in year one or kindergarten, but I worked at a place that was just across the road from the school. So it was all really it was all really nice. I could, I could be with them by 4.30, we could have the evening together, so we could do the swimming class and we could then do the reader and we could have dinner. You know, it was all really nice because I was able to be there. But I but I knew that there were lots of families who who both parents work till six and then have to pick them up from somewhere at 6 30 and then have to try and force everything in.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, I don't I don't know anymore. I just I we worked, we both worked, David and I, when our children were little. And you know, to the extent where we had to cut we were doing theatre and we had to cart them around and they were sitting backstage and stuff. I don't know. They didn't have Instagram though, did they?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

No. They did not.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

So they did not have the same influence.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Now now they would be sitting backstage, I guess, watching Instagram and Instead of colouring in and instead of colouring in and doing and doing their puzzle, yeah. I I don't know. I know it's easy to it's it's it is easy to blame social media for lots of things.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

And I think it's also easy to look at a a uh family from the outside and go, you're you're you know, you're not you because you you're both working, you don't have the time. I don't know. I think it's every every situation is complex and all that we can do is rather than talking to children about values, is actually we should be inhabiting them so that they're witnessing uh us live the sort of lives that we think, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:55

So you think maybe the Botox is not a good choice.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

I think the Botox is great. I was talking to my friend today and she said that there was some 21-year-old that's on online, I don't know, and she she'd been having Botox since she was 16. And and my friend was saying, she's a little bit medical, that what's gonna happen if if they s you know have Botox for the next 40 years? That the muscles will just atrophy. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

I don't know because I've heard I've heard this before, and in fact, the lady who does my Botox, um, I have a wrinkle there, and she said we likely won't be able to get that one to flatten out because it's been there for such a long time, it's now ingrained. So I understand that the point of having Botox since the age you were 21 is that you don't, you don't, you you can't recruit those muscles, therefore you can't form those.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Will they just will the muscles just atrophy? Well, I guess so, because I suppose that's what happens if you don't use your muscles. Well if I didn't ever, ever lift up a single thing in my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah, well, if you were a well happens to paraplegics and quadruple, it's what they have no muscles because they're not using them. So I guess that is entirely real. I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

I think we've solved precisely nothing.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

No, we've solved that.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

We always get to the end, don't we, and go, we've solved it. We've solved that. We've now discussed looks maxing, it's quite depressing. Yeah, and I think it's just I do think, I don't know what I think. I think it's very tricky. I'm very sad for parents that are in that whose children are now enmeshed in an online world which is feeding them absolute narcissistic garbage.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yeah, me too. And I don't know, it's really bad. But you're taking some testosterone. I'm still on HRT, I'll be on it till I'm 100. I'm gonna be on it.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I'm gonna be on it till I'm a hundred as well, because why not? Why not? How else are we gonna live for forever? I don't know, live forever. Oh, maybe Christian, what's his sort of sorted out his longevity thing? I hope he gets onto it quick. I did say to David last night, I hope he gets onto it. He's 48, um, which is the same age as I am, which I think is good because that means he's got some kind of motivation to get this. Because there's no point coming up with a longevity longevity hack when you're 80, Christian. Please get onto it. Oh, yeah, it's true. Immediately so that I can start. Huberman will be onto it. Exactly. Huberman will be onto it. So yeah, if we could get that moving along, boys, that'd be great. That'd be good.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Okay. All right. Well, um from us, um, pod in the car. Pod in car. Pot in the car. Pod in the car. Um no, not in pod in car. Pod in car. Um, thank you from Kate and I, Pod in Car. Pod in car. Um, and to all you listeners, wherever you are in the world. Stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on. You don't need to looks max, you're all gorgeous the way you are. And we'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.