Are We All in This Phone Call Now?

I’m having coffee with my friends Sue and Richard, which means we inevitably end up discussing the important social questions of our time.

Like: if you’re sitting in a quiet nail salon and another client is having a very loud phone conversation, are the rest of us now part of the call?

Nothing she was saying was particularly private, but suddenly I, my nail technician and hers were all unwilling participants. Is that rude? Is it particularly rude to the nail technician, who can’t exactly get up and leave? And at what point, if ever, is it socially acceptable to say something?

From there, we wander into the changing face of community pharmacy, and specifically, the “shop” part of the pharmacy. Once upon a time it was gifts, perfume, photo frames and things you could buy your mother for Christmas. Now that space increasingly seems to be filled with supplements, wellness products and things sitting somewhere in the hazy territory between healthcare and retail.

And finally, we reflect on something I can hardly believe: it’s been a year since I started making content online.

What began as me trying to answer questions about medicines and misinformation has turned into something much bigger, stranger and more wonderful than I expected.

Coffee, pharmacy, social etiquette and one year of putting myself on the internet. Just a normal catch-up, really.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Always was and always will be Aboriginal Here I am in a cafe in Gleave and I'm with my two dear friends Sue and Richard. Hi, thanks for being with me.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Hello, Kate. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Richard and I are actually celebrating our one year anniversary, aren't we, Richard? Yeah. That's so cute. With Sue. With Sue, third wheeling. Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

It's quite unbelievable that there was a time where I didn't know you, Kate. It seems strange, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:10

It's so nice to have been introduced to all your lovely friends.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Oh like Sue Yorati.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Like Sue.

SPEAKER_04 1:18

Oh, thank you. Yeah. It's um interesting how we find like-minded people cohort.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Now, Sue, I saw you recently at Skeptics in the Pub where we had a very enjoyable talk about robots and artificial intelligence.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Yes, that's right. Oh, is that where the sex robot comment came from?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Oh, I didn't understand it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

That's right, that's that's a comment for another day, there was that. Now, but we're here just having an informal get together just to sit just to catch up and see each other. But Kate, you said you had um something to spring upon us.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Well, no, I just had a I had an experience before I came and I didn't fully understand it, so I thought, what better way to unpack it than with you two clever minds. I'm in the nail salon, had my nails done. Yeah. I'm in the nail salon, and it's um quiet, so they didn't have anything on. There wasn't any music, or often they have the TV on showing some morning show, whatever, and it was completely quiet. And they're I um lovely Thai ladies who do it, but they're they're really quiet. And there was another lady in there getting her toes done, and she was on the phone in this completely silent room. So she's on the phone having a so I now know a lot about this lady. I know that she's traveling to Hobart. I know there was a lot of discussion around whether or not she should upgrade to business using her quantus frequent fire points or whether she should wait until they you can bid, you know, they send you an email and you can bid as to whether, you know, yep, and I know I know I know um that Bill's coming to um take off the kickboards and hopefully they're gonna have the kitchen renovated when they're away in September. And you know, so there's very like a normal conversation, but it's just a monologue when you're only hearing half of it. Yeah, yeah. And also, I guess I'm wondering socially, like so if you were talking to somebody else in this room, you'd put your heads together and you'd reduce your voice because you would understand that the room is quiet. She was speaking at quite I would say an outside voice volume. And it wasn't like she wasn't saying anything particularly bad, but then I was thinking, well well at what point at what point do I have to be part of her conversation, A? And B, at what point does it become inappropriate? So what she's talking about, fine, but if she starts bitching about somebody else, is that okay? If she starts talking about some kind of horrible medical procedure that she's about to, you know, no, I'm just I I'm putting it out there to the group. Bit of oversharing, maybe. What do we think?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Well, there's also the the aspect about that is you're hearing half a conversation which is jarring.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Well, yes, uh except that I've I think it went on for such a long time. I I know all the artists.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Well on the train, uh I was on the train just the other day and uh a call came in and I spoke softly, you know. I I I was I don't want to say embarrassed, but I just spoke very quietly and and quickly and I didn't say much because I didn't want to have a conversation in front of just So I think you've nailed it, Richard.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

You've spoken quietly and quickly. Yeah. So I don't think anybody's saying that you can't take a phone call in a public place.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

But don't don't broadcast.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

But I just wonder if that was the I don't know, because I also thought I mean I'm also sitting across from my lady. She's doing my nails. We're not having a conversation either, particularly. I mean, we're not having a conversation. But I would feel rude to be on the phone for I mean I might say, oh sorry, answer the phone to my children, say, yep, yep, no, that's fine, and then hang it up. But I wouldn't sit there for the full 40 minutes on the phone whilst somebody else was doing I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

So what you're saying was apart from you and your nail technician, her own nail technician was working on her while she completely ignored her and spoke to someone else. I just felt like it was a little bit. I think that's called being oblivious to other people's feelings.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

But there are people like that. Um the the other aspect of that is people who um use their smartphones, like you know, you can't say this in the audience, but I'm just pretending I'm holding a smartphone in front of me facing people.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

And talk like this.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

And put the other caller on speaker and talk.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Yeah, so you can hear both sides. Yeah. Yeah, well that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

I I used to think, have people forgotten how to hold a phone up to their ears.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Yeah, they don't want cancer. They're worried about getting ear cancer and brain cancer. That's why those those technologies developed, so you didn't have to hold your phone to your ears.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Well, that's that's interesting you should raise that because that's still going on, the scam, which is um phone patches. The Australian skeptics have seen many of these over the years. The ones that you know, you stick stick this little sticker onto the back of your phone and it'll protect you from the blah blah blah. All of them have been nonsense, but they're still out there and they've been out there for years. They come and go. Yeah. And there'll be a new so-called air quotes I'm doing technology, usually with the word quantum.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

Yeah, yes, and vibration, frequency, frequency.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Frequency vibration.

SPEAKER_04 6:36

Yes, yes. The other thing I think about in that situation is that you might go to that nail salon because you like the quiet meditative atmosphere which that woman's completely invaded. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I guess some people, it doesn't cross their minds, they're simply taking a call, and that's that.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Yes, but that's strange, isn't it, to be completely winning?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

You and me, yes, but I always in the back of my mind think that the population of the world is made up of many different people. And sometimes you encounter these different people who think and act differently for whatever reason. And when you do encounter them, and if they're like people who don't realize that you don't do this, well, that's just the way they are, you know. Maybe they can be educated, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Look, maybe I'm not right. Maybe maybe it's completely fine.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Well, I wouldn't do it. Now, Kate, Kate, Kate, Kate. The other week, you went to a conference. And we were chatting about this a couple of weeks ago when we had our last get together over coffee. And listeners will remember that we had uh Annie McCubbin and Dr. Angie there, you you and I. And you were about to speak at a pharmacy convention and I offered to come along and jeer and and and not not jeer you, but jeer the other pharmacists who sell homeopathy. How did it go?

SPEAKER_03 7:59

So sadly, they cut my time down a they cut everybody's time down, not just my time, but I ended up only speaking about my palliative care experience. So I didn't get to speak about how disappointing. I know, it was a bit. Anyway, so it went really well, thanks for asking, but it was in no way controversial.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Kate, I'm curious about the opinion of the pharmacy profession about homeopathy and woo as opposed to the pharmacy retailers groups.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

So I've now got the code of ethics, the PSA's code of ethics, um, which is really quite they've got these, they've put it into pillars and they've got this integrity pillar, and under the integrity pillar there's a whole bit about um communicating truthfully and um from an evidence-based point of view, and I was really looking at it going, oh okay, so how how is everybody reconciling this with their actual shop? Yeah, I don't know. I don't own a shop, so have you been in forums where that conversation happens? No.

SPEAKER_04 9:15

Well, no, is TikTok a forum? No. Um it just strikes me that pharmacy is one of those clinical professions that intersects with retail more than many others.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Well it does, but I don't know why, except that I'm not sure if I actually had this conversation with my dad, and he said, Oh, did you know that back in the 80s I was um asked by Terry White to improve their business model, and he and and he's and he was the one who said, Oh, you should start selling a whole lot of stuff out in front of the shop. And I was like, oh my god, Dad.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Now when you say Terry White, and of course Terry White is a chain of pharmacies in Australia, was there an actual individual called Mr. Terry White? I don't know, I assume so.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

There probably was at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yes, I assume so. It sounds like a good name for a brand, you know. It doesn't though, does it? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

No, I think he might he must have been Terry White back in the 70s, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

I don't know. It we could look that up, I don't know. Yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

The interesting thing for me with retail pharmacy is thinking about when I was a child, you used to go to the pharmacy for last-minute gifts because the pharmacy would open extended hours and they would often sell small ornaments and cosmetics. Yes. And to me, there's no conflict there. No, no conflict. I'm happy for them to sell cosmetics because they're not claiming any therapeutic benefit. So there's a whole new category when homeopathy and supplements are on the shelf.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Well, our American listeners, um I suspect Canada too, are certainly familiar with the concept of a drugstore being a general store that happens to sell lots of medications and you can get your prescription. Because when I go into a um a pharmacy in the San Francisco, for example, it's everything. You can buy uh even booze, you know, and um your your groceries and chips and and whatever, and yeah, pharmacy products. So that's what you know that's so but in Australia traditionally it's more just pharmacy, but it's of course it's now more to do with um magic, isn't it? Well, yeah, you can find magic.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Well, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I I I think I I was it you I thought it was you I was saying to must have been, could have been Annie. Um, but I was saying I don't understand I I understand how they needed to diversify their business model because they weren't getting enough, maybe money just off the dispensary. Yes, maybe. I don't know. Again, n not a shop owner. Well, couldn't there be a wine bar or a dress shop?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

You you made this point when we had our last coffee some weeks ago.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

It doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Why why does it have to be woo? Why why can't it be origami earrings? Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

It could go back to that previous model that had lots of other products that weren't claimed to be therapeutic, it's just they boosted the retail aspect of the.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

But then again, I can see why it's pretend medicine, because people go to a pharmacy for medication and pharmaceutical products. So if there's something on there that they're not told is magic, yeah, and it's pretending to be medicine, they're more likely to buy it from a pharmacy, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

I think so. I think that's the whole borrowing authority from the dispensary part of the model that doesn't sit terribly well with me. I mean a lady came in yesterday when I was in the shop, she just said, I just feel like This is your pharmacy, right? Oh, just where I work, yeah, it's not mine. It's just just where I work occasionally. And she said, I just don't feel I don't feel well, I've got a cold, like my my nose is running and I just don't feel well. What what can what can you give me to make me better? And I said, well you we can you know we can sort of deal with you piecemeal, you know, I can give you some paracetamol to for your fevers and some s uh pseudoephedrine for your drippy nose. And she said, but what can you what can you give me to actually make me better? Like nothing. But but I think she really wanted she really wanted me to say, here, take this immunity booster. Yes. You know, that would have been she would have taken that from me uh a thousand percent. That's actually what she wanted. What she wanted for me was for me to say, if you swallow this many of these tablets, you will be cured. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

It's a bit like that old joke that if you do nothing, the cold will last a week, but if you take this medicine, it'll be gone in only seven days. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

There's uh have you I I used to see it more or but I uh I haven't seen it for a while, I don't think. The copper bracelets for rheumatism or arthritis or something?

SPEAKER_04 13:50

Yeah, they were popular a number of years ago. And you you know what I find interesting about the marketing of those? That there's a Venn diagram between elderly people with arthritis and NRMA members who read the paper magazine. So if you flip through the NRMA magazine, there are two prominent ads for that generation. There are collectibles, like little ornaments that you supposedly keep forever and they cost a huge amount of money, except if everyone else has got one. And then there are the elderly arthritis cures like the copper bracelets.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Well, I'm glad you brought that to my attention for our international listeners. The NRMA is our motorist organization. Just like the AA in the United States. If you break down, then you can call them. Well that that's I'm glad you told me that. That's worth that might be worth a Ben Spoon nomination for next year.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Well, I think they've also upgraded now to amber bracelets, aren't it?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Well, there years ago there was amber teething bracelet.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Yeah, they're still around, the amber teething necklaces, which babies can conveniently choke on. Can choke on, yes, and the street brace.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

So, Kate, let's reflect on your past year. What a year it's been, because when I discovered you, you were doing the TikToks, you had your TikTok channel and you had your Barbara O'Neill channel.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Yes, which I retired that one.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

And then But but since the our meeting where I said I wrote this grov grovelling letter to Kate and I said Um You know, will you consent to an interview, please? Oh no, I wrote I said interview request. Yeah, and I thought maybe she will, I don't know. And she said yes, I thought, oh great, how much so it was done with informed consent? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

It was informed consent, and I it was my year of saying yes. Very good, yeah. That's a good strategy. Yeah, yeah. Say yes. Tiny things.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

That noise you can hear in the background is a coffee being made in the coffee machine over there. Look at that, all the steam coming up.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Or a hot cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

How was your coffee? My coffee was lovely.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

My coffee was good, yeah. Australia folks, Sydney, have it's good good coffee.

SPEAKER_04 16:05

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

We do coffee. But yeah, the past year you it's been a whirlwind for you because you've uh exploded into the world of podcasting, really, big time, haven't you? I mean, the the knowledge you've gained and the number of episodes and the different topics you've covered, and now you're like me, you're you're replete with all sorts of recording. I am.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

I am, yeah, it's great fun. Yeah. It's really great fun. It's really very enabling, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

That's that's good to hear. Now, again, the listeners can't see this, but uh I I'm sort of uh on one side of the table, Kate is on my right and Sue is on my left, it's a little square table, and they both have my they both have microphones pointed towards them. But Kate, I'm using the microphone on this on the device.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

So when you're doing your dinner time, yeah, this might be something you can consider having the microphone facing you.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Yes, I was no, no, I was looking at it. I don't have a I see how yours is attached to a tripod.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

I haven't quite got that kind of setup, but I could. That wouldn't be very hard. No.

SPEAKER_04 17:09

That's a whole new area of product to expand into. Yes. All of the supporting structure. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

But you also are very prominent of doing little video snippets on Facebook, TikTok, that sort of stuff. So you do stuff to camera, yeah, and you have all sorts of things in the background, and I think it you you get a lot of uh, shall I say, hits, a lot of uh um mileage out of that.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Yeah, well, yeah, I think um people seem to enjoy the science-based content. Yeah, I mean you're only ever speaking to a subset of people who you know you can't please everybody. You really can't please everybody, so you should not try.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

But there's also nothing wrong with speaking to a like-minded audience because you're equipping them with the answers to a lot of questions that they can then debunk misinformation when they hear it.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Well, I'm hoping that maybe I can be speaking to people who are um maybe thoughtful or unsure. So not the not the people who already agree with me because they're easily won over. The ones who are open to learning. Yeah, the ones who are open to I've met had a lady, again, in the shop yesterday, and she came in, she wanted liver powder. She came in asking for liver powder. And was that powder made of liver? Or is it powder problem? No, sorry, beg your pardon. Powdered liver. She wanted an she wanted an iron supplement. Oh. Is what she wanted. But she thought But she doesn't like eating liver. She thought she doesn't like eating liver, and she thought she wanted powdered liver because it was more natural. And I was trying to find in the shop this stuff and I couldn't I I didn't even know if we had it because I couldn't find it. Um and I said to her, what are you trying to do? Like what what's your goal here? And she said, I need an iron supplement. Um and I said, Well, how about how about this one? Which has actually been manufactured and been tested and been, you know, we know the dose of you know, we we know lots about this one. And she said, Oh, it's um I said, what makes you think you want powdered liver and and um she said, Oh, it's natural. And I said, but can I just can I just challenge you on why you think you want something more natural? Like what's your what's your process there? And she said, Oh, I don't know. I don't know, I just thought it would be better because it's natural. And I said, But is it i you know is it okay can we keep talking about this because this is interesting to me that you have this anyway in the end she went, okay, and took the stuff off the shelf. I mean, I don't know, maybe that was just to get away from me, but but some people, I guess what I'm saying is some people are some people are open to the conversation. Uh other people, I guess you have to read the audience, don't you?

SPEAKER_04 20:00

And the other important thing, Kate, is that you are open to having the discussion rather than just selling a product. So you are also in a retail environment that's not so pressured that you just hand things over and go on to the next person.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

And also, I I guess I've got um conf you know, have enough confidence. You have the confidence. I have enough confidence, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

But it must be frustrating for the young pharmacists who work in the supermarket type pharmacies to just churn over the retail store and not be a clinician.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

I imagine though, do you think they even have anything to do with the front of shop? I imagine they sit right at the back and do and do no um no patient-facing. Like I do a lot of chats, walking from the dispensary to the till.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Have a lot of have a lot of conversation on that on that walk. I don't know that they're doing any of that. I think they're doing a take this box, put this sticker on it, hand it over. That's what I observe when I'm there.

SPEAKER_04 20:55

Yes. In fact, people will often drop off their script or have an electronic script and go and do something else while then come back when it's all done. Yeah. That's right. Just get handed a little box to take to the right I've certainly done that.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I've I've handed in my script and they said five, ten, twenty minutes, whatever, and I wander around the shelves.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Because what you do, what are you gonna do? I mean, I wander around the shelves and laugh at the homeopathy.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Yeah. And having worked with pharmacists in clinically in an emergency department, I've seen how much better a role, more satisfying a role it is for them to be give their clinical advice rather than just dispensing and putting stickers on boxes. Actually, clever people. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Well, mostly, you know, like I believe that, Kate.

SPEAKER_04 21:40

I believe that you have uh you're not only clever but have very highly specialized knowledge adds to healthcare.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

If you uh back yourself to provide it in that setting. That's right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Thanks, guys, that was so fun. Thanks for thanks for being the third Wheelsue. Oh, it was really fun and an interesting experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

It's always a pleasure to uh to see you again, Casey.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah, let's do it again. We'll do it again when Richard and um no, you're Richard, when Tim and Annie can be with us.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yes, that'll be good fun. Yeah.